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- Este debate tiene 410 respuestas, 57 mensajes y ha sido actualizado por última vez el hace 3 años, 5 meses por The_Osco.
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El 159 es el ultimo modelo que me gusta de Alfa (mmmm un 159 T.I. con doble salida de escape :baba: ). El MiTo y el Giulietta no me hacen tilin.
Lo del 159 fue desastroso. No solo lo de perder dinero por cada modelo (cuesta mucho de creer la verdad), sino que se gastaron millones en preparar el GTA y no vió la luz, dijeron que iba a tener un restiling pero luego va a ser que no porque iban a darle un sustituto pronto. Y al final, no hubo sustituto, no le hicieron nada, y duró lo normal en un modelo. Un completo desastre. Y bueno, eso de actualizarlo con mejores mecanicas (salvo el 1.8T y los jtd), para qué, era mas gasto y no querian ya hacer nada con él. Bueno, y con ninguno.Y es que no entiendo la manera de hacer con Alfa: Presentas el modelo, durante unos años vas actualizandolo y cuando llega el facelift/restiling, a dejarlo morir como si tal cosa. Coñe, pero si tienes nuevos motores por ejemplo, usalos!!
Con el 147 dejaron los T.S. en el modelo hasta el final sabiendo lo que ocurre con ellos (lo de hacer si o si la distribución cada 60.000 km tiene delito, sabiendo el fallo y pudiendo corregirlo), teniendo ya los JTS en el 156 perfectamente validos para captar nueva clientela que no queria los t.s., pero no, los dejo y que se aguanten, porque lo otro me cuesta dinero. Ahora, los diesel si, voy actualizandolos, pero los otros, total, ahi no “dañan” a nadie.
¿Y el GTA? Para que, soy una marca de coches de marcado caracter deportivo, para que voy a necesitar un modelo radical (precioso), pfff, eso no es necesario:BangHead: [quote quote=”A.P.M.”]Mi no entender
A ver si alguien me lo puede explicar🙂
Se supone (igual el fallo lo tengo aqui, en la base) que Maserati está usando la base del Chrysler 300 para sus modelos. Y Alfa Romeo sacará un modelo hermano del Ghibli
No tendria sentido hacer una nueva plataforma para “volver a empezar”, sabiendose lo que se sabe y habiendo invertido dinero en la del 300 para hacer el resto de modelos. Aunque viniendo del grupo FIAT cualquier cosa es posible, desgraciadamente[/quote] Lo de que Maserati usa la del 300 es una barbaridad. La nueva tiene muchas pero que muchas horas de ingeniería (sobre todo en materiales) para aligerarla de peso. Mira lo que pesa el enorme QP, el 300, y me lo cuentas.
Comparten partes para abaratar costes (por ejemplo el subchasis para la caja de cambios para que la ZF8 comparta soportes)
[quote quote=”Zhio”]
Lo de que Maserati usa la del 300 es una barbaridad. La nueva tiene muchas pero que muchas horas de ingeniería (sobre todo en materiales) para aligerarla de peso. Mira lo que pesa el enorme QP, el 300, y me lo cuentas.Comparten partes para abaratar costes (por ejemplo el subchasis para la caja de cambios para que la ZF8 comparta soportes)
[/quote]
Pues eso, que el fallo lo tengo en la base jajaja
Pero me parece un poco raro que, de tener ya una nueva plataforma, o una evolución profunda, pretendan sacar otra para otros. Ahora que se miran los costes por todos lados, con una que se pueda alargar y encoger hay de sobra, y no creo que sea un problemaResumiendo. Pienso que el Giulia será trasera y ligero, en la linea de todo lo nuevo y por eso están tardando. La duda que me surge es si el Giullietta nuevo será trasera o no. Porque si el bravo desaparece como compacto…se podría hacer trasera junto al Delta.
Y una duda que tengo. Que van a hacer con el Mito? Creo que necesita un cambio radical para competir con el A1 que es su rival directo.
[quote quote=”paulodelarosa”]Resumiendo. Pienso que el Giulia será trasera y ligero, en la linea de todo lo nuevo y por eso están tardando.La duda que me surge es si el Giullietta nuevo será trasera o no. Porque si el bravo desaparece como compacto…se podría hacer trasera junto al Delta.
Y una duda que tengo. Que van a hacer con el Mito? Creo que necesita un cambio radical para competir con el A1 que es su rival directo.
[/quote] POr lo que se lee:
– El sustituto del Bravo será el 500X.
– Leí que el Mito podría tener como sustituto un SUV. Yo lo dudo. Pero hasta 2016 nada.
– El Giulietta será delantera.
– El Chrysler 200 (Detroit 2014) podría llamarse en Europa Delta.Eso lo sé. Pero por lo que se lee en algunos sitios tiene sentido que tanto giullietta como delta y derivados americanos sean tracción trasera…aunque parece que BMW recula con el serie 1… [size size=150]Fiat estudia mudarse a Holanda para pagar menos impuestos[/size] El consejero delegado del consorcio automovilístico italiano Fiat, Sergio Marchionne, ha indicado que la futura sede central de la alianza entre Fiat y la estadounidense Chrysler podría establecerse en los Países Bajos, una vez que se haya culminado la fusión entre ambas corporaciones.
El establecimiento de la base de la Fiat y Chrysler en Países Bajos sería beneficioso en el caso de que la empresa resultante de la fusión entre ambas optara por cotizar en la Bolsa de Nueva York, dado que la normativa en dicho país es similar a la de EEUU.
Estas declaraciones se producen después de que, el pasado 29 de abril, Marchionne mostrara su deseo de que la futura Fiat-Chrysler estableciera su cotización principal en Nueva York. Además, Fiat Industrial también está trasladando su sede a Países Bajos después de su anuncio de fusión con CNH, que podría finalizar el próximo otoño.
Así, el directivo señaló que la fusión entre Fiat Industrial y CNH es uno de los “proyectos” técnicos para una futura unión entre Fiat y Chrysler. En la actualidad, Fiat está en conversaciones con el fondo VEBA, que posee el 41,5% del capital de Chrysler para hacerse con su participación.
Via
http://www.elboletin.com/internacional/80681/fiat-busca-mudarse-holanda-clima-fiscal.html ACUERDO FIAT-SINDICATOS PARA LA INVERSIÓN EN MIRAFIORI. Hoy se ha alcanzado el acuerdo entre Fiat y los sindicatos para la inversión de 1.000 millones de euros en Mirafiori.
Allí se hará el LEVANTE SUV (con base Quattroporte y no Grand Cherokee) y otro modelo alto de gama (Ojala un Alfa….)
Marchionne ha escrito una carta a los trabajadores de Mirafiori agradeciéndoles el acuerdo y dandoles esperanzas para la nueva era que se avecina ya que su regulación de empleo se prolongará hasta bien entrado 2014. El LEVANTE saldrá de allí a principios de 2015.
Falta la inversión en CASSINO donde deberían ir los Alfas.
Ya tenemos acuerdos en POMIGLIANO (Panda), GRUGLIASCO (QP, Ghilib), MELFI (500X, Jeep SUV B), Mirafiori (Levante, ‘???)
MARCHIONE CONFIRMA QUE TODOS LOS ALFA SE HARÁN EN ITALIA, SALVO EL SPIDER QUE SE HARÁ EN HIROSHIMA Ha confirmado los nuevos modelos y ha dicho:
” Los modelos de Alfa Romeo estan, solo que hay que esperar el momento oportuno para lanzarlos….”
Marchionne «I modelli Alfa Romeo ci sono»Il piano di rilancio dell’Alfa Romeo è in corso:«I modelli ci sono, li annunceremo al momento opportuno».Pero cuando!!
Que tener en Europa solo 2 modelos es ridiculo[quote quote=”A.P.M.”]Pero cuando!!
Que tener en Europa solo 2 modelos es ridiculo[/quote] Eso digo yo
MARCHIONNE ESTA SEMANA INTENTARÁ LLEGAR A UN ACUERDO CON VEBA PARA ADQUIRIR EL 100 % DE CHRYSLER. VEBA TIENE EL 41,5 % de Chrysler
El Juez de Delaware voloró ese paquete en 2.000 dólares. VEBA pide 5.000 millones.
Es fundamental que Fiat se haga con ese 41,5 % y completar la adquisición del 100 %.
Así dispondrá de dinero Cash para nuevas inversiones y podrá realizar la salida a bolsa.
Se avecinan semanas apasionantes en Fiat-CHrysler…
😀 MASERATI: MOLTO BENE, BAMBINO!!MARCHIONNE Y ELKANN ESTÁN CONTENTISIMOS….
Y han presentado el QP Diesel.
El año pasado vendieron menos de 7.000 udes.
– Ordenes Ene-Ago 2014 : 20.304 udes
– 9500 QP
– 6500 Ghibli
– 4000 GranturismoEn Julio y Agosto se han realizado 3.000 reservas cada mes.
[quote quote=”RadiK-Alfa”]MASERATI: MOLTO BENE, BAMBINO!!MARCHIONNE Y ELKANN ESTÁN CONTENTISIMOS….
Y han presentado el QP Diesel.
El año pasado vendieron menos de 7.000 udes.
– Ordenes Ene-Ago 2014 : 20.304 udes
– 9500 QP
– 6500 Ghibli
– 4000 GranturismoEn Julio y Agosto se han realizado 3.000 reservas cada mes.
[/quote] Es 2014 o 2013?, y cual es el presupuesto anual?
[quote quote=”Fuego”][quote quote=”RadiK-Alfa”]MASERATI: MOLTO BENE, BAMBINO!!MARCHIONNE Y ELKANN ESTÁN CONTENTISIMOS….
Y han presentado el QP Diesel.
El año pasado vendieron menos de 7.000 udes.
– Ordenes Ene-Ago 2013: 20.304 udes
– 9500 QP
– 6500 Ghibli
– 4000 GranturismoEn Julio y Agosto se han realizado 3.000 reservas cada mes.
[/quote] Es 2014 o 2013?, y cual es el presupuesto anual?
[/quote] Quise poner 2013.
El objetivo es 50.000 udes para 2016, cuando esté operativo el LEVANTE y el NUEVO GRANTURISMO Y COUPE.
[quote quote=”RadiK-Alfa”][quote quote=”Fuego”][quote quote=”RadiK-Alfa”]MASERATI: MOLTO BENE, BAMBINO!!MARCHIONNE Y ELKANN ESTÁN CONTENTISIMOS….
Y han presentado el QP Diesel.
El año pasado vendieron menos de 7.000 udes.
– Ordenes Ene-Ago 2013: 20.304 udes
– 9500 QP
– 6500 Ghibli
– 4000 GranturismoEn Julio y Agosto se han realizado 3.000 reservas cada mes.
[/quote] Es 2014 o 2013?, y cual es el presupuesto anual?
[/quote] Quise poner 2013.
El objetivo es 50.000 udes para 2016, cuando esté operativo el LEVANTE y el NUEVO GRANTURISMO Y COUPE.
[/quote] Gracias!
No deja de ser ambicioso el plan para el 2016!
Haber si despega de una vez.Creo que ALFA se lo merece. Dice que los modelos están, pero que hay que esperar el momento.
Haber si cuando den luz verde, los modelos están ya antiguos.[quote quote=”alfadani”]Haber si despega de una vez.Creo que ALFA se lo merece. Dice que los modelos están, pero que hay que esperar el momento.
Haber si cuando den luz verde, los modelos están ya antiguos.[/quote] La duda existencial es que algunos dicen que el Giulia será delantera (CUSW) y otros dicen que será trasera D-Evo RWD.
Esteticamente ¿cuánto tardan los Alfas en quedarse antiguos?. Mi 159 cumplirá 8 años y me parece un diseño sempiterno.
Y sobre motores, toca el paso a Euro 6, así que llevará lo último en motores (hablan de Multiair II en gasolina y diesel)
[size size=150]Alfa’s revised plan focuses on new rwd/awd architecture[/size] The revised Alfa Romeo plan that Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne is expected to announce next April focuses on a new, still unnamed rear-wheel- and all-wheel-drive architecture. A key aim of the new plan is to boost Alfa’s global presence.
“With our current segment coverage and our geographical footprint, we compete in about 5 percent of the global market,” Alfa’s European boss, Louis-Carl Vignon, said in an interview. He wants the brand to compete in 32 percent of the global market by 2016.
Alfa said that its revised plan is “top secret” and refused to comment on individual models to Automotive News Europe. However, the following is what industry and supplier sources say Alfa is currently considering.
Giulia: Originally due in 2014 and planned to share its underpinnings with the redesigned Chrysler 200, which debuts next year, the Giulia project would switch to the new rwd/awd architecture and debut in late 2015 at the earliest. Alfa is considering building the Giulias and other models based on its new architecture at its plant in Cassino, central Italy.
Large sedan: Last year Alfa began working on a rear-drive large sedan. As a derivative of the Maserati Ghibli, the Alfa flagship was intended for launch by the end of 2014. This summer Alfa shelved the idea of using Maserati’s underpinnings – regarded as too expensive for Alfa – in favor of the new rwd/awd platform. The sedan is likely to debut alongside the new Giulia at a time yet to be announced.
Mid-sized coupe: The new architecture could underpin a coupe to rival models such as the BMW 4 series.
Large coupe: Alfa is considering a large coupe to rival the BMW 6 series, possibly using the underpinnings of the next-generation Maserati GranTurismo coupe due in 2016. Alfa has not had a large coupe in the post-WWII period.
Roadster: Alfa plans to offer an heir to the legendary Duetto Spider driven by Dustin Hoffman in “The Graduate.” Mazda will build a two-seat roadster for Alfa at its factory in Hiroshima, Japan. Due in 2015, this will be a variant of the redesigned rear-drive MX-5/Miata, although each model with have its own distinct styling and engines. Alfa will use a beefed-up version of its 170hp 1.4-liter MultiAir turbo-gasoline unit.
4C coupe: At the end of October Alfa delivered the first five units of its 4C coupe to European customers. Shipments to Asia will follow in the first quarter of 2014 and North America in the second quarter. The car starts at 53,000 euros. Alfa plans to build 3,500 units a year, with 1,000 destined for Europe, 1,200 to 1,500 for North America, the rest for Asia.
4C Spider: Alfa plans a 4C roadster version, dubbed 4C Spider. It will have an easy-to-remove carbon fiber roof and is expected to debut at the Geneva show next March.
Compact crossover: Alfa is said to be planning its first compact crossover, to be derived from the single model that replaces the Jeep Compass and Patriot. The timing of an Alfa variant is unclear.
Mid-sized SUV: Alfa had been considering a sibling model to the redesigned Jeep Cherokee for some time. The original plan was for the Alfa variant to be built in the United States and to go on sale about a year after the new Jeep. Latest reports suggest this mid-sized SUV could be switched to the new rwd/awd architecture and be built in Cassino.
Large SUV: Alfa seems to be considering once again a large SUV, this time based on the Maserati Levante premium large SUV to be built at Fiat’s Mirafiori plant in Turin. The Levante is due in early 2015 and the Alfa variant could follow about 18 months later.
MiTo: Due to Europe’s sales slump, Alfa canceled plans for a five-door variant of the Europe-only three-door MiTo. Its eventual replacement will be relocated from the Mirafiori plant, which is now being converted to build large premium vehicles for Maserati and Alfa.
Giulietta: Alfa’s best-selling model has just received a mild face-lift and a better navigation system in the 2014 model launched at the Frankfurt auto show last September. The car is due for a redesign in 2016.
[size size=150]Marchionne will unveil 4th relaunch plan for struggling Alfa[/size] Fiat CEO Sergio Marchionne hopes that betting billions of euros on Alfa Romeo will reverse a decade of losses and six years of collapsing sales at the sporty brand. This year, Alfa’s sales are likely to fall below 100,000 units for the first time since 1969. Marchionne’s new plan for Alfa – his fourth since he joined Fiat in June 2004 – has the same goal as the one he introduced for its sister company, Fiat’s premium subsidiary, Maserati. Under the plan, Alfa will focus on developing premium vehicles to be exported worldwide from Italy.
An effective Alfa relaunch is a crucial element in Marchionne’s broader strategy to return Fiat’s automotive division to profitability in Europe by 2016. Fiat lost 700 million euros ($928 million) last year in Europe and so far Alfa has yet to make a profit under Marchionne’s nine-year watch.
“We continue to work in a pretty determined fashion trying to reshape the Alfa Romeo platform and I think we will be in a position to outline more at the end of the first quarter of 2014,” Marchionne said during a conference call with analysts on Oct. 30. He said he would reveal a new five-year strategy for Fiat Group and Chrysler next year, most likely in late April in conjunction with the company’s first-quarter earnings report. “We will give an opportunity to look to the five-year plan based on the thorough assessment” of Alfa Romeo and the company’s other automotive brands, he said.
‘Great brand, no plan’
“Alfa is great brand with no industrial plan,” said Arndt Ellinghorst, senior managing director of London consultancy International Strategy & Investment.
Ian Fletcher, a senior analyst at IHS Automotive, said: “In the past, Fiat has tried to address so many projects at once that it appears to have been unable to give Alfa the attention it really needs.” Fletcher said a new Alfa strategy could fall short in terms of execution because Chrysler and the rest of Fiat’s European operations also need a lot of attention.
Plan execution is also the main risk foreseen by Massimo Vecchio, a financial analyst at Mediobanca Securities in Milan. “Marchionne could still relaunch Alfa, it is just a matter of money and execution,” he said. Vecchio also said that in the future Alfa’s products would have to be genuinely premium and not merely pretend to be and he questioned whether the company still has the skills needed to achieve this.
New underpinnings
The revised Alfa plan will focus on a new rear-wheel- and all-wheel-drive architecture being developed by a small team of engineers based at Maserati’s headquarters in Modena, Italy. The team is headed by Philippe Krieff, who reports directly to Harald Wester, Fiat-Chrysler chief technical officer and CEO of Alfa and Maserati.
Krieff, a French-born engineer, joined tire maker Michelin in 1987 and became responsible for Fiat’s chassis and vehicle dynamics 11 years later. He moved to Ferrari in January 2012 as head of vehicle development. Krieff’s team is working on a new vehicle architecture needed to help Alfa compete more effectively against German rivals BMW and Mercedes-Benz, both of which already offer the rwd and awd cars favored by many driving enthusiasts.
Alfa, however, will be unable to generate sufficient volume in its own right to achieve any worthwhile economies of scale. So Krieff’s architecture must be flexible enough to be used by Chrysler and Dodge brands as well. With a global volume of 101,000 units last year, Alfa sold less than one-tenth as many cars as BMW and Mercedes. There are two key reasons for this: Alfa is product starved – its current models are the MiTo subcompact, Giulietta compact and 4C coupe. The automaker is also almost entirely dependent on a slumping European market. In the first 10 months of this year Alfa’s European sales fell 30 percent to 53,604 units, according to data from the industry association ACEA.
The new architecture is expected to help reverse this trend. It will underpin at least four new Alfa models: the Giulia mid-sized sedan and wagon, a large flagship sedan and a mid-sized SUV. The first of these vehicles is due to debut in Europe in late 2015 or early 2016. All Alfa models built on the new architecture will also be sold in the United States, the world’s second-largest market after China, where Alfa has long wanted to regain a foothold. Sources say the architecture could also underpin the replacements for the Chrysler 300 and Dodge Charger large sedans, as well as the future Dodge Challenger coupe.
Marchionne’s previous plan for Alfa, unveiled in April 2010, sought to achieve annual sales of 500,000 units by 2014. Due to delays in new product launches, however, that target was lowered, first in September 2011 to 400,000 units and then in October last year to “more than 300,000 units.”
Analysts are much more pessimistic. IHS, for example, expects Alfa only will sell about 77,000 units globally next year. The market forecaster envisages Alfa annual sales recovering to a peak of about 239,000 units in 2017 and 2018, then decreasing to 223,000 in 2020. To put this dismal performance into context, Audi expects to achieve global sales of 1.5 million units this year and to be selling 2 million units a year by 2020.
Chrysler or Alfa?
Analysts are also skeptical about Marchionne’s new plan for Alfa because it could conflict with his other mission, which is to take full control of Chrysler Group. Mediobanca’s Vecchio says that with its current capital structure Fiat simply does not have enough cash to buy the remaining 41.5 stake in Chrysler and also to spend billions reviving Alfa Romeo. ISI’s Ellinghorst agrees, saying that Marchionne could do “neither … unless he fixes the issue of combining Chrysler and Fiat cash.”
However, Richard Hilgert, an automotive analyst at Morningstar in Chicago, thinks that prior to acquiring the remaining stake in Chrysler Marchionne could prepare an entirely new capital structure for the enlarged group. This would let the CEO: fund the relaunch of Alfa; support new product development for Fiat in Europe; and fund the Chrysler purchase. “I think the company could negotiate a financing package prior to closing on a Chrysler deal with the VEBA [the trade union pension trust that is Chrysler’s minority owner],” Hilgert said.
To date Fiat has kept secret its plans for new Alfa models and the investments required for the company’s relaunch. Mediobanca’s Vecchio expects Fiat to put 5 billion euros into Alfa over the next five years. This includes 800 million euros each for five new products and the balance for marketing and distribution.
Marchionne hopes that revamping Alfa, in much the same way that Maserati has been, will help ignite a production boom. The ultimate aim is to turn the company’s currently underutilized Italian plants into export champions. It is hoped they will end up working around the clock to meet unprecedented global demand for such stylish models as the Maserati Ghibli and Quattroporte large sedans.
Alfa’s last successful model, the 156, debuted in 1997 and achieved peak global sales of 120,000 in 2000.Aiming at the ‘higher end’
“We will focus on Alfa Romeo and Maserati to access the higher end of what we consider to be a permanently polarized market,” Marchionne said in October, when he reiterated that Fiat would not close any Italian vehicle plants. The Cassino, Melfi, Mirafiori and Pomigliano plants have the capacity to make more than 1 million units but last year their combined output declined by 18 percent to 394,620 units, according to the Italian automaker association ANFIA.
Industry observers say that as a rule of thumb automakers need to be working at around 75 percent to 80 percent of capacity just to achieve break-even. Last year, Fiat’s Italian plants worked at 40 percent of capacity.
“The Maserati [third-quarter] numbers are an initial indication of the route to success of the strategy that we’ve outlined,” Marchionne said. Between January and September this year Maserati’s sales rose by 63 percent to 7,458 units – more than the 6,288 cars sold in the whole of 2012 and well on course to beat its 2008 record of 9,000 units. Revenues grew consistently in each quarter this year, reflecting increases in shipments. There was a corresponding improvement in profitability, with a first-quarter trading loss of 4 million euros followed by trading profits of 9 million euros in the second quarter and 43 million euros in the third.
Maserati received about 22,700 orders in the first nine months this year and in November its main plant in Grugliasco, near Turin, finished the 10,000th car built since January. The company said it built 8,200 Quattroporte and 1,800 Ghiblis in the period.
Fiat plans to invest 1.5 billion euros in Maserati between 2011 and 2014 and to sell 50,000 cars a year by 2015. “Our investment [in new models] is starting to pay off,” Wester said adding that he aims to deliver a strong profit. “We plan a two-figure operating margin by 2015,” he said. For 2012, Maserati had a 6.6 percent operating margin on sales of 634 million euros. This improved to 9.7 percent in the third quarter on sales of 444 million euros. Wester expects revenue to grow nearly tenfold to about 4 billion euros by 2015.
Based on what has been achieved so far at Maserati, Morningstar’s Hilgert believes a relaunch of Alfa could work. “Maserati has global brand recognition as a premium automotive company. Alfa has similar global recognition, but as a brand that represents a premium, small, sporty, fun-to-drive carmaker,” he said.
Other analysts doubt Alfa can match Maserati’s success. “Maserati is super niche,” Ellinghorst said, “while Alfa competes with other mass makers and needs global distribution.” Said Vecchio: “Maserati is simply a stronger brand.”
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